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hot tub pabelsub panel in house labelsSub Panel in house for lights and receptaclsI recently built a 30x50 shop with a small living area built out inside of it. Now I need to feed power to it. I have a main 200amp feed through panel just below the meter. It's a Siemens PW0816B1200TC. Right now that panel is pretty full, see picture attached. I could remove the 2- 20 amp breakers on the left as those feed receptacles right next to the panel. Ideally I'd like 150amp service running to the shop which is 100' away. For that I'll run 2/0 aluminum cables. Can anyone guide me through how I can get this done. main panel below meter

Here's the panel outside of attached on house. There's another sub panel in the house that has all the receptacles and lights on it. That gets supplied by the 60amp breaker on the top left. Sub Panel attached to garage

Matt
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  • You should also have a panel inside the house for the rest of the circuits. I doubt if you would have enough extra amps for 150 amps to take from the house. You will need to a load calculation for the house to see how power you can spare. – crip659 Dec 01 '23 at 23:59
  • Yes I have another panel on the side of my garage and then another panel in my house. The panel on the side of the garage has all the large double pull breakers. I could probably get by with 125amp service to my shop. Wouldn't I be able to fit a 125amp break in my main panel (after removing the 2-20amp breakers) – Matt Dec 02 '23 at 01:03
  • You can fit almost any size you want. You only have 200 amps total, so every amp that goes to the shop is one less for the house. For that much power you will need a load calculation(found on search) to see what size breaker should not cause an overload and start tripping the main breaker. You might have enough extra to spare(little electric use) or need an upgrade to a bigger service or a second service. – crip659 Dec 02 '23 at 01:50
  • Do the instructions on the door specify a maximum amperage limit for breakers or for back-to-back breakers. – NoSparksPlease Dec 02 '23 at 02:10
  • You will likely get little good advice here since the work you describe will certainly require a permit, which will require a Load Calculation. From your existing 200a service you have a 200A feed leaving out the bottom, a 100A feed, a 50A feed (which is probably an oversized breaker based on appearance of size of wire), and some other random loads. So yes you can replace some low amp breakers with a larger one, but I'll give 100:1 odds you're already overloaded and adding a breaker sized 60% of service won't pass plan review or be safe. – NoSparksPlease Dec 02 '23 at 02:31
  • I'll go ahead and contact our electric company to have them come out and take a look. The breakers in that panel are a 30 amp for my well pump, a 100 amp for my solar, a 50 amp for a Eaton surge protector (below the panel), and the 2- 20 amp breakers for the outlets on the pole. Not sure why the previous owner did that, don't see why the outlets can't be on the same 20 amp circuit. – Matt Dec 02 '23 at 02:56
  • How many HP is said well pump, and how many kW of solar generation do you have? Also, how many square feet is the living area attached to the shop space, and can you provide us with the square footage of your house + a photo of the house's panel for that matter please? – ThreePhaseEel Dec 02 '23 at 04:11
  • 1 HP well pump, 17.28 kW solar array, living area in shop is a little under 450sq ft. My house is 2725sq ft. I've attached a photo of the sub panel on attached garage – Matt Dec 02 '23 at 13:45
  • @Matt -- alright, can you post a photo of the lights/receptacles subpanel and the spa panel as well please? Also, how many kWs are the cooktop and oven, what does the breaker in the garage panel labeled "well pump" feed, and can you post photos of the nameplates for your air conditioner and furnace/air handler please? – ThreePhaseEel Dec 02 '23 at 17:17
  • Added pictures of subpanel in house and hot tub pabel. I have no clue what that "well pump" breaker is feeding and neither does the previous owner. My well is being fed from the main panel by the meter. I flipped it off and we'll see if anything in house doesn't work – Matt Dec 02 '23 at 18:31
  • @Matt -- got it. As to the kW ratings of the cooktop and oven, and the Minimum Circuit Ampacity (MCA) ratings of the furnace and AC unit for that matter? – ThreePhaseEel Dec 02 '23 at 20:21
  • Ive decided to put my shop off grid. Got a kit coming with batteries and inverter. Figured I might as well take full advantage of my solar array – Matt Dec 06 '23 at 21:01

2 Answers2

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More spaces

This section is corrupted because simply "following it and declaring Mission Accomplished" would result in a dangerous configuration.

The question is "how do you get more breaker spaces in the outdoor trailer/ranch panel?" And the answer is have the surge suppressor and 30A load share the 30A breaker. Surge suppressors are not loads and do not need dedicated breakers. If the Siemens breaker is marked for 2 wires per terminal, there ya go, otherwise pigtail off a #6 pigtail. (#6 just to stop people from whining about restricted current path to a surge, if that's not you, #10). If even that is intolerable, get a Siemens 30/50 quadplex such as Q23050CT2 so you can direct wire to the breaker. This "trailer/ranch panel" is an 8/16 and can accommodate all double-stuff breakers, however none exceed 50A.

I don't know the stab limits for a Siemens panel but if you don't know, 125A is a safe assumption. Be careful what you put across from the 100A breaker. The well pump is 1HP so nowhere near 25A. The surge is 0A. So those are perfect. The 20A singles could go across from the 100A also.

Or you could move the surge suppressor to the 40-space panel. You've placed it as close as possible to the utility on the logic that "the outside utility is the only source of surges and that none of my appliances generate surges!" I would place it in the 40-space panel to more directly suppress locally generated surges (looking at you, air conditioner). As regards outside surges, the extra attenuation down the cable run from trailer/ranch panel to 40-space will make it easier for the surge suppressor and wear it down less.

This house looks bonkers overloaded

I see a normal house panel in that Square D 24-space... OK... looks like wild guess 70A to me give or take. Okay.

But then, I see another 40-space panel with no less than ten 240V breakers. We've got 60A to the above subpanel (that doesn't help your Load Calculation any). TWO "furnace" breakers totaling 90A. A 50A A/C breaker. A 50A spa panel. 40A "COOP TOOP" whatever that is. On top of all the normal loads + a well pump. This house does not have gas, does it?

This is way more stuff than you can get on a 200A panel, unless some EMS is happening off screen.

Looking back at the work done in the trailer/ranch panel, I suspect this house has enjoyed many upgrades since the last time an inspector saw it.

  • I see a 30A circuit wired with orange NM-B cable (which is not allowed outside).
  • I see 200A utility merging with 100A? 130A? of solar to total 300A on that bus going onto the 200A rated bottom lugs and 4/0 feeder to the 200A bussed Square D 40-space. So 300A could show up on the bus of the 40-space. Does it have a main breaker? It really needs one to prevent that from happening.
  • And now you want to add 150A more load onto the outdoor Trailer/Ranch Panel. The 120% rule is not enough, and it doesn't even work on this panel, because the loads (note thru lugs) are not between main and solar breaker.
  • And EVs are a thing and probably coming to this home. The layout of these panels makes an EVEMS solution challenging.

Now a 150A panel in the shop doesn't necessarily mean 150A of additional load, but absolutely no way. This house is overloaded already, or quite close to it. And Unless someone can show a NEC 220.82 Load Calculation to the contrary, I say this house is already overloaded, and the solar is dangerously misconfigured.

The X-factor: Home battery and/or V2X

One emerging technology is home batteries. The system does "Grid Forming", meaning it can activate your solar panels even though the grid is down. You probably well know that bog-standard UL 1741 grid-tie / grid-following / microinverter panels are simply stone dead when the grid is down, and cannot be used in a traditional DC/battery system.

Modern grid-forming inverters are designed to emulate the grid so accurately that UL 1741 solar panels recognize it as the grid and power up. The battery (must) absorb the solar energy (or the solar won't be fooled). That means the solar doesn't need to be connected at all to the battery system, it just needs to be on the same side of the isolation switch. (There must be an isolation switch so the inverter isn't backfeeding the grid and killing linemen, and the switch has an auxiliary contact that tells the inverter "we are isolated").

So a Grid Forming Inverter + Battery is what the PowerWall and competitors are. And the battery is the expensive part: hold that thought.

Now that they are selling millions of 75 kilowatt-hour battery packs on wheels, with self-propulsion ability, California is insisting that automakers add the scrap of software code required for them to function as home batteries. The most immediate benefit is a solar/battery system can now be installed without having to pay for the battery, which is the most expensive part of it. A knock-on benefit will be the opportunity for the consumer to arbitrage "peak hour" vs "midnight/morning solar" electricity".

All that to say, it might be worth caring about how to set up solar/battery or V2X for grid-down reliability. The pinch point there is the isolation switch.

Option 1: 400A service, but V2X/off-grid solar-battery would be costly

That's pretty straightforward. Get a 400A service configured to be "solar ready" -- i.e. it has terminals on the utility side of the main breakers for the solar to attach. So that removes solar from the equation entirely.

Since you have a trailer/ranch panel already, I would recommend a 400A ranch panel - which is configured exactly like this one, except with a second 200A breaker above the existing one which does not feed the mini-panel. So the mini-panel is hung off one of the 200A mains. So the second one feeds the 40-space Square D panel, which hopefully helps with its load calculation.

Into the "mini-panel" section go the breakers that are already here, minus the solar. The thru lugs off the mini-panel go to your new "150A" shop, except the wire will be 200A because it's easier to enlarge the wire than it is to screw around with the gigantic and very costly 150A branch circuit breaker. Plus obviously you picked 150A because you were scrimping to save money and would rather have 200A at the shop.

Now if you want grid-down solar/battery, again you have to get the solar on the same side of the isolation switch as the battery. That means the isolation switch needs to be either above the meter, or above the 400A "trailer panel". It also needs to be a 400A isolation switch.

The alternative, that's not really practical with your loads, is to have one 200A "side" contain all solar and critical loads, and have the other 200A side simply lose power when the grid goes down. That saves money on the isolation switch, since you can use commodity isolation switches.

Option 2: Put your loads on a diet.

This isn't about deprivation; it's about triumph of technology.

The other solution here is a radical effort to reduce loads in the house. That can take a number of forms. Right off the bat, radically attack HVAC loads first by aggressively insulating to bring the house as close to LEED as possible, and second by getting rid of that 90A of furnace and replacing it with the most efficient heat pumps. That will also cross off Air Conditioning since heat pumps provide that.

Some appliances can be attacked with efficient appliances, such as heat pump dryer (automatic win, since it doesn't heat or freeze the laundry room, and importantly, eliminates the dryer vent and thus a huge air exchange problem). And a heat pump water heater, which has complications, since it chills the utility room. The well-heeled can get on a waiting list for a battery range that plugs into a 120V outlet.

EMS systems can deployed to take advantage of the fact that most loads operate on a "duty cycle", cycling on/off at intervals. Currently, that duty cycle is decided entirely by 5 cent bimetal strips, and you must provision electric service for the worst condition that the bimetal strip gods might throw at you. Add a tiny bit of intelligence to it, and now you don't.

If you can whittle it down enough, you can probably get the house and shop on the 200A.

And the "diet" will help with solar/battery/V2X, because it will keep everything on the same side of a cheaper isolation switch. And for that matter, greatly reduce the burden the battery must carry.

Also don't forget that other battery in a well-insulated house.

Harper - Reinstate Monica
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  • Thank you very much for this well detailed response. I will be contacting the electric company to see how much it would be to get that 400amp split service. Ideally I'd love to have 200 amp service to the shop. – Matt Dec 02 '23 at 22:21
  • @Matt I had a hunch you might prefer 200A there :) If EV charging is on the menu, check out my EMS links, because they make EVs disappear from the Load Calc. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Dec 02 '23 at 22:39
  • @Matt -- did you catch my last question in the comments to your question? Hoping to get enough info from your end to run an actual load calculation and see just how bad things are for you – ThreePhaseEel Dec 02 '23 at 22:55
  • Yes I did and thank you for that. I'll get a picture uploaded hopefully tomorrow. – Matt Dec 02 '23 at 23:33
  • @Harper-ReinstateMonica do you have a model number of a 400 amp ranch panel just so I can look it up and see what they go for? – Matt Dec 03 '23 at 14:07
  • @Matt sorry for being away. Try Siemens MC0816B1400SC or Eaton HP816P400BS – Harper - Reinstate Monica Dec 09 '23 at 05:51
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The 50 amp breaker appears to be attached to a TVSS right below panel. There are 2 types of these devices. One requires to be connected to a breaker, and type 2 can be connected directly to bussing lugs. If so, do so. Remove the 20's. Now double check the breaker loads in the garage sub panel. "Big 2 poles" is not enough info. How big. AND connected to what? This panel only allows 110A per stab. If you can replace the 100A for garage with an 80A, place the 30A across from it, and the you have a perfectly legal, code compliant space for a2 pole 100A breaker for new shop.

Even better that 100 is a solar feed. That let's you use your original idea. Pull the two 20A out and you can throw up to a 110A breaker in for shop. Just have it across from anything except the 30A.

Also, if you do need more than the 100A, you can use wire rated for 200A and splice into the sub panel feeders. Polaris and NSI make awesome insulated lugs which will work well. Polaris lug

Keith
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  • I've attached a photo of the sub panel at my garage location. The 100amp on main panel doesn't feed the garage, it goes to my solar array which is a 17.28kW array. – Matt Dec 02 '23 at 13:38